John Thurso MP

"Implications of the European working time directive for retained firefighters" Westminster Hall debate

John Thurso spoke at length today on the implications that the European working time directive would have for retained firefighters in his constituency. John also tabled Early Day Motion 552 which sets out the concerns people had raised with him in the constituency.

The European working time directive (which is being discussed in Brussels now and could come into effect in three years time) would limit the number of hours a retained firefighter could work in a week, and thus potentially stop them from fulfilling their duties as a firefighter.

See full text of debate below:

John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) on securing this debate, whose importance is shown by the number of hon. Members who have attended the Chamber to speak, intervene or just listen. The matter was brought to our attention by the Retained Firefighters Union. I did a bit of homework and spoke to a number of people, as I am sure my hon. Friend did, and discovered that this was a real, live issue that was causing grave concern. That is why I tabled early-day motion 552, which sets out the concerns that have been expressed to me.

I have been accused this morning of scaremongering for tabling EDM 552, but I refute that suggestion, because I did so to reflect both the views of many of my constituents who are concerned about the fire service that they will have and the views of many retained fireman whom I know personally: they are friends of mine. I know exactly what those retained firemen do and the amount of training that they put in. I know how much they enjoy what they do and how much they like to be part of that service. The EDM was tabled to reflect their concern and that of the community. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for having got off the mark far faster than me in securing this debate.

My hon. Friend stressed the importance of the work of retained firefighters overall and, naturally, as I do, stressed their importance in remote and rural areas. I confirm the comments that he made to the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning): this is not about how the fire service is dealt with in rural areas as opposed to urban areas. The fact that we choose to stress the importance of the service in our remote and rural constituencies does nothing to gainsay the exceptional job that is done by retained firefighters in urban areas, where, as he has explained, they fulfil a vital role.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would permit me to emphasise that, in my constituency, for example, there is not one fire station that is wholly manned by whole-time firemen. The typical arrangement is for a full-time fireman to be in charge of the station, possibly with an assistant, with the rest of the teams-the crews-made up entirely of retained firemen who form the backbone. I believe that there are some 391 fire stations in Scotland, of which some 321 are manned by retained firemen. A statistic I always appreciate is that 91 per cent. of the landmass of the UK is covered wholly by retained firemen.

Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Gentleman for clarifying the point on the urban and rural situation. Just to clarify things further, I have a very urban seat in Hemel Hempstead and a very rural constituency surrounding it. I only have one whole-time station: the rest are manned by retained firefighters. That shows exactly what can happen in and around London.

John Thurso: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's clarification.

Over the years I have visited many fire stations, which provide a vital emergency service and do a great job. I do not think that a single hon. Member from any party in the Chamber would say anything other than that our fire services do a splendid job. I was most impressed, as I mentioned in my intervention on the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead, by the training facility of the highlands fire brigade at Invergordon. I visited that facility and observed the professionalism with which the training was given to everybody who passed through, including some of the volunteer firemen from community response units; that was of great interest to me and underlined how well all those firemen operate.

Hon. Members have asked whether there is a problem. All the sources to whom I have spoken indicated that a real problem is brewing. However, there is some confusion about the extent of the problem, which is why my hon. Friend called for this debate. There are three years to go until the impact of what is being discussed at the European Union will come into force and it is much better to discuss the matter now and seek a proper solution than, as my hon. Friend said, wait for three years to see how it pans out and deal with a problem when it arrives, rather than today. That is why I am looking to the Minister to give-I hope-some reassurance about how the Government are going to take this matter forward.

A number of Government Members sought to argue that this is all a matter of health and safety and that those of us involved in tabling the EDM or who brought forward the debate are looking through the wrong end of the telescope. The hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) said that we should simply look at it the other way round. He then told us that in emergency situations, retained firefighters are exempt anyway, which struck me as rather curious, because if ever there was a moment when people needed health and safety I would have thought it would be in the middle of an emergency. I put it to the hon. Gentleman that, in fact, he is looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

I have never met a fireman who was not concerned about health and safety. Indeed, I have always been impressed by the way in which health and safety has been both inculcated in the fire service, how it has trained for it and the way in which it practises it. That is not the issue. The issue is that people want to volunteer to do something for their community, and they can do so in various ways. Some volunteer for charitable work. In a number of areas of charitable work individuals, not least the sea cadets and others, spend a considerable number of hours undertaking dangerous work on the sea, for example, and nobody says that they should not do it because they have already worked 40 or 44 hours in their main job-we would not think of doing so. We have to understand that people choose to volunteer for certain exercises, and limiting that where there is a good system for health and safety in place-with the consequences that that might deliver-is looking at this matter from the wrong direction.

I should like to read a letter from a retained fireman, which goes to the point about volunteering:

"Although fully paid-up by the Fire & Rescue Service, it can be argued that we volunteer to do this work. The primary motivation for the vast majority of RDS personnel is a love of the job coupled with a genuine desire to help make our communities as safe as possible within our remit. No one asks us to do this difficult and demanding job, and the pay is relatively modest for what we commit to do."

That sums up the attitude of the people who are there and working as retained firemen.

The silly thing is that if a retained fireman who was an agricultural employee and worked for the fire service, as often happens in my constituency, was called out to a major muirburn fire-if he were to heed the call, don his kit and safety gear at the station and work under the auspices of the trained leadership that he enjoyed-he would be subject to a limit on the number of hours he could work. However, if he went straight to the fire without obeying a call to go to the station, remained in civilian clothes and did not use any of the fire service's equipment, but was one of the many civilian volunteers who always turn out, he could work as long as he liked. That is completely back to front; it is the wrong way to do it.

I urge hon. Members to take into account the voluntary nature of the work, the excellent training in health and safety that is given and the fact that the full-time officers understand and take care of the men under their command. I suggest that this is one of those unintended consequences that are the result of so much legislation, particularly from Europe. I say to the Minister that this is an unintended consequence that we need to deal with, so will the Government do so?

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